Robert, It has been efficient, reliable and clean! Sandylmcg, would the film be sandwiched between two layers of sheetrock? It's the kind with wires spaced throughout the ceiling. Radiant ceiling heat, 1969 home, Trying to find ceiling joist with a stud finder.. it seems to be picking up radiant heat as well.. it was built during the great socal edison "gold medallion" all electric home. 3. Small Business. Here are the warnings in their own words - Electric Radiant Ceiling Heat 1970S Qmark Radiant Ceiling Panels from homeconceptaero.blogspot.com In winter, this situation is reversed with your warm indoor air moving through the plasterboard and outside of the home. It is not that simple minded. They are from the Rayboard Company in Bellaire, OH. Can you give me the name of someone who could repair this? Mine are SPST switch on. http://oikos.com/esb/37/radiant.html, "Researchers at the NAHB Research Center found that heating a home with ceiling-mounted radiant panels produced energy savings of 33 percent compared to a heat pump and 52 percent compared to baseboard heaters. Looking to repair or replace as needed.Thanks. Now who is more comfortable? The panels conduct heat so effectively that they can be used beneath any type of flooring, be it tile, hardwood, or even thick-pile carpeting. My spouse died 9 years ago so I rely on others to help me with their opinions. . It is clearly a waste of time to have a difference of opinion in this forum. We are pleased with this answer and still looking into how to do a safety inspection. Electrical Safety Advice | ElectriciansForums.net. Panels, each inset with hot-water tubing, lie under the floor material of your choice, delivering heat to the space above quietly, invisibly, and in a constant, enveloping way. Houzz nutzt Cookies und hnliche Technologien, um Ihre Benutzererfahrung zu personalisieren, Ihnen relevante Inhalte bereitzustellen und die Produkte und Dienstleistungen zu verbessern. To get the most out of radiant ceiling heat, it's recommended that the system be installed on flat ceilings that are between 8 and 12 feet high. Believe it or not coal and hot water heat did not effect the respiratory but forced air is a respiratory nightmare. thanks. Last Post 03 Feb 2009 06:25 PM by walltech. All of them work o.k., but the dining room ceiling seems to get physically warm to the touch. Unfortunately, it's very expensive and doesn't even begin to heat my 1500 square foot home. William, resistance heating is resistance heating ..the difference in heat distribution might affect how people setup thermostat and the total energy use ..but unltimately not by much. Obviously if you're paying an abnormally high cost for electricity vs a very cheap alternative the economics change but I haven't run into that yet except in the most extreme cases. Ceiled heat was the way to go. I checked with the electrician that installed my ceiling heat He asked me some questions regarding if there had been any leaks, cracks in ceiling, or if I planned to use it for main heat source. By Michael Franco Updated Jul 25, 2017 4:13 PM. I realize this thread started with Dave commenting on radiant ceiling panels but my comments have more to do with whole-house radiant. Do some research on how the systems work. Comparing both radiant-type and convective-type in-space heaters showed that using the radiant-type saved more than its counterpart, i.e. This is a good alternative to houses with central heating system. We have electric radiant heat in our ceilings in a ranch house built in the late 1960s by my uncle. There may be no such thing as a perfect system, but, hey, its 2015: You deserve heating that operates efficiently to create consistent comfort. Seven years or so ago we had a remodel done and our kitchen and bath wires were inadvertently cut. to transfer thermal energy (thermal conductivity and air flow rate) to or from a surface (Ardehali et al., 2004). This is not a high heating bill for Minneapolis. They may be good for retrofit. Trying to get anyone here in OHIO to troubleshoot this issue has not gone well. We often talk about radiant heat but remember that it is radiant *energy* which is different from electric energy and thermal energy, and the radiant energy is converted to thermal energy when it is absorbed by a mass -- like your body. Concealed, Quiet System If you like to keep your home looking aesthetic and visually appealing, this heating system can be a great choice. With forced-air heating, the most ubiquitous type in America, temperatures are particularly variable, thanks to the roller-coaster effect of the system turning on and off. ( just received my bill ;) Most radiant ceiling heat designs use electricity to warm an element, and allow the heat to radiate. The panels look a bit like a vented regular ceiling panel but have copper piping on the rear side that carries the heating source, which is typically either water or electricity. (I might not have this totally right either, because this is very complex, but I am all for learning where I might be wrong. Our friends' home just had a pretty bad fire and it was almost certainly this ceiling heat where it started. That's why you are happy to use electric resistance heat -- because your electricity is so cheap. In addition, because aluminum transfers heat so effectively, the home boiler can heat the water for the system to a lower temperature than other systems would require. But ceiling panel radiant? Hi, my home was built in 1966, and I have ceiling radiant heat. Bigman | Jan 06, 2006 02:57am | #20. With radiant ceilings and floors comfort is achieved at a lower room temp, which can reduce the amount of fuel used by a few percent. Follow along as I fix up this h. In other words, you can insulate every wall and plug every air leak, but if your heating system consumes a relatively large amount of energy in the effort to reach and maintain a comfortable indoor temperature, youre inevitably going to be stuck with sizable month-to-month utility bills. Looking at buying an older home built in late 70's we think.. Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. Sorry, Steve, but a BTU is a BTU. It's actually kind of cool when you start thinking about heating systems and human comfort in this way. It is one of the most efficient ways to heat your home and could possibly save you as much as twenty percent on your energy costs. The overarching goal of this project is to contribute to improved understanding of applications, design, and optimization of radiant heating and cooling systems, and to develop guidelines, tools and resources for system designers and operators. Everybody who uses this type of heat pays high fuel bills. And as soon as I get through reading all the info here I will be looking for somebody to inspect ours. I don't want to just lay it up on top of the patch I put in (attic is above). Thus convective heating systems typically respond slower especially to step (temperature) A hot-water baseboard or radiator system, in comparison, runs with a water temperature of 160-210 degrees. thanks thanks. A few weeks ago they were working fine. (typical houses in those days were all 1/2" regular walls and ceilings) It was a really clean even radiant heat. A radiant ceiling has the minimal heat resistance of 5/8" sheet rock, while floors can have significant resistance to overcome with flooring goods and furniture. Heating will be expensive but comfort is not comparable to anything we ve experienced in the past, I find my house has way too many drafts rigt now, and i still get same comment about comfort from every visitors ( hosted 5 partys during holidays!!! I am unsure how to even begin figuring out what kind of system I have, I just know we love the heat and want to keep it. There is a 3-wire cable for each room that runs 2 hot wires and an unshielded ground from the breaker box to each room for 220v. It would be great if John writes a blog post to generate a good discussion here. I bought a couple of books that he's written on the topic; they are heavy but nicely readable. Patrick, I live in a house with radiant ceiling heat in VT. Certainly, the basic technology offers efficiency advantages, but individual system components make a big difference too. Otherwise we keep it on 55 degrees to keep the house from getting too cold when we are at work. "Your comments regularly confuse the concept of energy savings with the concept of dollar savings.". There are many benefits to choosing a radiant heat ceiling as the heating option for your home. House was built in early 1970s. Since ceilings are typically constructed of gypsum based sheet rock, they offer very little resistance to thermal transfer. http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/enerjoy_case_study.pdf. Thanks to haulbrookdf for your comment as well. Certainly, there are aesthetic advantages to a heating system that does not force you to decorate around bulky radiators or wall-hugging baseboards. I don't understand why you keep painting me as an advocate of using ceiling electric radiant panels as the sole source for heating homes. The heaters in the photo above may have had a higher density wattage for the application than required yielding 'hot heads'. When the heat kicks on, blasts of hot air rush into the space until the target temperature has been reached. How can I find local installers of it.? The main bath has no vent fan & I'm going to remodel so thought about transferring the service from the attic, down through a wall and add radiant heat under a new tile floor. The average 65F radiant comfort temperature with 59F day/night setback should reduce building heat load by 25% to 35% over convective systems.". Check to see if the ceiling heat is a film and possibly wireless..then there would be no worries. The article was written by the Research Chairman of the ASHRAE Radiant Heating and Cooling Technical Committee. Michael -- thanks for citing the research from Canada. This won't delete the articles you've saved, just the list. I am currently having my kitchen renovated in my 1965 home. If you're going to work on your system, be careful, you're playing with 220v. While the wife upstairs feet were blistering, the gadgee doonstairs heid had a coating of frost on it. A person with forced air will turn the stat up a little more to achieve the same level of comfort, using more energy. Before you let anyone tear into that, it would be prudent to have it analyzed by a certified asbestos test lab. Results showed that the in-space heaters used less energy (gas or electric) than the central system, e.g. Stat in each room. They are comfortable but I think floor heat works better. You wrote, "Just noticed this discussion.". Is this actually a concern? ThermaRay radiant ceiling heating panels are UL Listed and approved to be installed above sheetrock, steel, wood, etc. What would cause cracking sounds with electric ceiling heat? 25% more in the 1950s house and 10% more in the modern house. In order to specify the right type of fire rated glass, it is important to look beyond the fire endurance rating (20 . You are using an out of date browser. I wasnt able to find much at all about this company. Would it by fine to just clip this wire, and lose heat to the one panel? Engineered Hardwoods - Navigating all the brands. who is good? Update Bernie Gerry We purchased the house, and it was built in 1968 not late 70s. Heat loss plays a huge role in how long the heat will last on your radiant ceiling heat. This article has been brought to you by Warmboard. energy consumption (Zmeureanu et al., 1988; Howell and Suryanarayana, 1990; Imanari et al., 1999; Petras and Kalus, 2000; Miriel et al., 2002; Feng et al., 2006) and (3) favorable tie-in You write that your theory is "borne out by many independent tests." Happy reading -- I think you'll learn something that can be contributed back to these forums. To my surprise there was power in all the wires even after i cut them. When i gutted the bathroom i discovered radiant heat in the ceiling. Manufactured gypsum board heating panels use an electrical heating element in 16-mm (f-in.) #9. I read about it, and anticipated that we d be comfortable with lower temp, Resources. It's part of the advantage to having a radiant heat system like radiant ceiling heat where you can setback and turn the heat off and on much like a light switch due to rapid response times in the panels/array. Here's a brief study of assessing clains of lower thermostat settings in hones with radiant floor heat done by CMHC http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/01-106-e.html, They found slightly higher settings in the radiant heat homes and concluded: The main problem with your proposal -- to lower the air temperature setting of the thermostat and depend on electric ceiling panels to warm people -- is that people don't stay put, unless they are working on an assembly line in a cold factory (where radiant panels probably make sense). Most have an operating window of 10 degrees Fahrenheit, starting 5 degrees Fahrenheit below the set temperature and heating to 5 degrees Fahrenheit . Morgan : you seem like an experienced person judging from internet info : ft. in a cold climate with lots of glass. It has been like this for several years. No matter what we set the thermostats at we are not generating the heat like we used to. heating systems (Hart, 1981; Zmeureanu et al., 1988) which is not favorable since air infiltration rate in a building is one of the significant factors affecting energy use and comfort (DeWerth and Loria, Thats one of the reasons that more and more homeowners are switching to radiant. You act as if people are concocting magic when they discuss radiant heat but standing in the sun on a cold day should provide ample evidence that radiant heat is fundamentally different from heating the air, and the fact is this method of heat transfer to the human body is fairly efficient. They now claim no responsibility so trying to replace it ourselves with something different. You need to think about this as a complex system involving humans in order to answer the questions about comparing fundamentally different heating systems. Water heated by the boiler could be pumped through the tubes, heating the concrete in the absence of sun. Again, there's a large difference between heating the same air mass (electrical vs gas central furnaces) and localized zone heating that relies more on radiant heat transfer than convected heat transfer, which is more efficient and is noted to equate also with higher levels of thermal comfort. Absolutely hate it. To make electric resistance heat competitive with natural gas, you'd have to have a rate of 3 cents a kwh. Performance. 1970's retro fit rear car window heater built in, thick visible tracks) are fragile and easily damaged. There's no downside to that. The electric radiant mats have VERY low distribution losses (a few percent, mostly in the line to low volage conversion electronics). ( electrical,wire is buried at the bottom, would preferred a mid slab but it was to complex to install that way). Wrong. Also We need to repair one wire that the electrician cut into. I can email those to you as I don't have a web-based link to share at the moment. I snipped the wires in two and maretted the ends. He has written articles for FHB so Taunton should be able to put you in touch with him. "Studies conducted by the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) indicate that with radiant heating systems people can be comfortable at temperatures 6F to 8F lower than with convective systems. If the breaker's on, the heats on, even if the thermostat is turned all the way down. Is there anything we can use to see for sure where it is so we could make a hold for the box? Heat source was not an eye sore as baseboard heaters. But at the end, i will still install heatpump mini splits to cool, so with the effeciency difference, they will see alot of use in the off winter months heating period. All of the homes were designed to be heated with a new type of system called radiant heat; Levittown was the first development of radiantly heated homes in America. Below are some of the benefits you can enjoy: Hi:Does anyone have knowledge of how radiant electric ceiling heat was installed 40 years? Myth No.2: Radiant Ceiling Heat is Not Efficient. Radiant flooring provides considerable design flexibility and warms chilly feet. ( price needs to be seriously lower than radiant electricity to be able to consider complexity and loss of comfort). They had full heat sheets, half heat sheets, and 1/3 heat sheets. Richard D. Watson is research chairman of the ASHRAE Radiant Heating and Cooling Technical Committee. We use the bathroom zone in the winter but otherwise we keep it at 50 degrees and heat with wood. They do do work in Ohio. Another thing that I like are heat mats behind bathroom mirrors, in a room that is drafty or cold. Numerous researches on radiant heating systems have followed then, mostly evaluating the advantages and disadvantages of this type of heating system and comparing with the traditional Any one run into that before, Just wanted to add an important warning to this post. For instance, in some radiant setups, hydronic tubes (or electric coils) are embedded within a slab of sluggish concrete that takes hours to heat up and cool down. They are NOT hard to find. Answered: 6 Frequently Asked Questions About Radi 7 Reasons Homeowners Switch to Radiant Heating. Our home built in 1960 has the coils of wire radiant ceiling heat. Project Objective. The combination of these two effects significantly increase . I am sorry this feels condescending to you, but the way you put down anyone who tries to explain radiant heat to you comes off as condescending and uninformed. Obviously its electrical resistance heat, and theres an attic above so theres doubtless some loss into the attic, but these definitely make you feel warm, because your head is so close to the heat source. Radiant Ceiling Heat Thermostat Replacement 9 Easy Steps Efficiently Heating And Cooling Homes With High Ceilings Rooms Dengarden Radiant Floor Heating When It Does And Doesn T Make Sense Buildinggreen Electric Radiant Floor Warming Doityourself Com Wps Most Power Should Be Red Tonight Wluk Hydronic Ceiling Panels Heating Help The Wall It is more efficient than baseboard . But how does it affect energy consumption ?? Then came 1907 and a British professor named A.H. Barker came up with the first real radiant heating system, the "radiant panel," which used a large surface like a floor or ceiling to radiate heat into a building's living space. I have no idea what sort of ceiling heat is being discussed, but when I lived in Colorado in the mid-70s, I worked for a contractor during the winter building expensive custom houses. Here's the first one I ran across: This was in contrast to a traditional. In this particular installation, warm ceilings probably work great. Warmboard, a leading radiant manufacturer, designates a separate thermostat for separate zones, enabling customers to minimize household energy usage. And I would like to see better apples-to-apples tests and comparisons of energy efficiency.). Felt like i was starting a cold with a slight hot head The remainder of sheets were 5/8 firecode. Looks quite dated, going by the rest of the install would say no earlier than 1970's. Currently trying to suss out where its wired from. Is it smart to still consider anything other than heat pump system ?? - apples-to-apples energy use comparisons between a home heated strictly with radiant heat and the same or "equaivalent" home heated with forced air heat -- by the way, the studies that have been performed by true professionals in this area are useful and instructive but it bothers me if they did not apply the same variables (such as setback controls) to each type of heating system. William, If you need to speak with someone this is the person I dealt with egilmartin@calorique.com phone is 646 369 2527. Wow, so glad to finally find this informative info. The hardware of this device is mounted over the head making it very practical for homeowner living in small houses. I look into my electrical cabinet and wondering what are the reasons or when to consider some upgrades. If an `incorrect` 120V(single pole) thermo was installed, but not wired correctly, it could allow continuity thru the heat elements hence still heating BUT the contacts WOULD NOT WELD TOGETHER!!!! In the next phase of development, radiant heating took a big step toward becoming its own entity, an active system capable of providing heat with or without help from the sun. Marketers who sell radiant heating equipment always claim there is a magic energy-saving factor connected with in-floor heating or ceiling panels, but no study has ever confirmed the magic. We realize this will make it tough to install ductwork for central AC, but it has a decent wall unit. By the way, I heated 2200 s.f. Try calling 800-922-9276. If you have radiator, baseboard, or forced-air heating, you know the thermostat only approximates the temperature in your home. Ill post when i talk with electrician. I notice there has not been any activity on this forum since January 2019. Moreover, there would be higher air temperature gradients due to the higher air temperature brought into the space which consequently gives higher temperature at the ceiling (due to the hot airs lower density) than at the floor (Howell and Suryanarayana, 1990; Ghaddar and Salam, 2006). In one, we used sheetrock that had heating coils embedded about 6 inches apart lengthwise. The heat is in the ceiling and is presently working great. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. In one of our more recent design/build radiant systems we radiated the slab in the basement and the ceiling for the main floor at the same design water temperature - 110F ,which of course modulates with outdoor air temperatures having an average design water temperature made for heat pump or condensing boiler. The owner left me no history on the installation. I have the same issue and I dont know what it is but my electric bills are through the roof. If part of the energy savings was from setback savings, is that necessarily a bad thing? The splices where only a 1/4" long, we dug out the plasterboard a little and replastered right over the splice. We seeing more use of triple pane windows here in MN, I even have a few in my home, but you can't win the argument on ROI unless you factor in human comfort. Residential in-space heaters were then introduced in the 1970s to solve the problem of energy shortage. The entire unit is mounted in silicone rubber to eliminate hum and expansion noise. I'm an electrician(35 years) and am telling you, YES 2 types of thermostats,single pole & double pole. Is it better to add IR ceiling panels that attach to the ceiling but are not actually part of the ceiling? We had used Sears best grade. You received a plan on which sheets went where. "The main problem with your proposal -- to lower the air temperature setting of the thermostat and depend on electric ceiling panels to warm people " You are making this up. We often use them in small, outlining toilet rooms on commercial projects. So when heated water travels through the hydronic tubing within aluminum panels, the metal swiftly transfers the heat to the home. Ceiling systems generally use radiant heat, and central heat systems propel heat through ducts into every room in the home. But dont let the arrival of spring distract you from the reality that, if you were uncomfortable at home during the cold months, you are likely to be uncomfortable again. I have a new home and it has radiant heat in ceiling that goes back to the 1950's and has black pipe as coils. UPDATE 1/21/2017 -- they are now saying (they = insurance and restoration professionals working with them) that is was the bathroom light fixture, not the ceiling heat, and it makes sense. We bought our house in 2015 and the prior owner was an electrician. I need to put some hooks in the joist. A worst-case hot air system could be running under 50% net efficiency due to high air-handler-driven infiltration. Last year (2022) we filled Jan, Mar, May & Sept and we live on the Massachusetts coast. Amazon.com: ceiling heat thermostat. Its facts and opinions are those of BobVila.com. Ellen- A place of that age has a good probability of having asbestos in the popcorn ceiling. https://www.pmmag.com/ext/resources/PM/2014/June/016-020-0614-Siggy.pdf, Two other pieces to be taken with a grain of salt since it's from a manufacturer/dealer, but still useful (under 5 minute read each): The ceiling had to be replaced and it originally had a cement board on it. The hardware of this device is mounted over the head making it very practical for homeowner living in small houses. Naturally, there is no valid argument against raising mean radiant temperatures for comfort. I dont think so anymore unless someone can come up with something with similar COP and simpler installation. However I'd be happy to go into greater detail at another time, perhaps in another topic area that is more appropriate. The lines leading to and from the grid had no continuity, so I began to suspect a broken wire somewhere in the grid. Radiant heating systems operate with water temperatures of 90-140 degrees. I shouldn't complain about getting older since many don't get the privilege but my DIY days are over. Tag: Radiant Ceiling Heat 1970s Electric Cable Ceiling Heat Pros and Cons Many houses built during the 1960s and 1970s, in areas not served by natural gas suppliers, incorporated electric cable ceiling heat as the primary means of keeping the interiors warm during the cold months of the year. Sorry, Martin, but there are plenty of studies out there. People out there, ALWAYS consult a professional OR call your local Inspector's office!! . We LOVE it and its still working great almost 60 years later except in laundry room where Len the Plumber cut the wires. I don't know about the economics but you get a really nice warmth from them in the morning when you are shaving, plus they de-fog the mirror. And yes, I find your assumption that I don't understand radiant heat -- whether from the sun, a wood stove, or one of your electric resistance panels -- to be somewhat condescending. According to the Department of Energy, "Radiant heating has a number of advantages. Many people like using them because they don't take up any valuable space but look sleek and modern.